Argumentative Essay Help

"Godspeed11- I own a SAAB" (Godspeed11) 11/15/2013 at 18:11 • Filed to: None

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So I'm looking for some help to pick out an automotive topic to write about for English. I'm thinking something along the lines of Diesels in America but I can't think of a good argument to pose. "Why Americans Should Buy Diesels"? I just don't know. I can't think of a good opposition...

area man > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:14

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If you're drawn to fuels, ethanol is always a touchy subject with lots of opinions.

HammerheadFistpunch > area man 11/15/2013 at 18:15

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true that, I wrote something along those lines.

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:15

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Well, no matter how hard you try, Diesel is somehow a bit rough at idle.

My friend have the new 330d BMW, And i know it's a diesel just by hear the car idles. There's a distinctive roughness that you can't hide in Diesel.

davedave1111 > Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. 11/15/2013 at 18:21

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Is it roughness, or just that they idle so slow?

hollanddjw 1 > area man 11/15/2013 at 18:22

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I agree. You could take it one step further and just talk about biofuels, i.e. biodiesel and pure ethanol, considering both their positives as energy sources and as a way to "save the planet," etc.

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > davedave1111 11/15/2013 at 18:24

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well, it sounded like a a bus in idle.
But when you drive it, that distinctive diesel roughness is just gone. It's a blast.

Ian Duer (320b) > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:33

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If you were looking for an anti-diesel viewpoint that is fairly easy. The first round of mainstream turbo cars in the 80s-90s didn't do well because they were more sensitive to mistreatment. You had to warm them up properly and let them idle for a while to prevent "coking" the bearings after driving hard or on the freeway for a while. These were all things that are not good for any engine but were especially problematic for those early turbo models. Another example would be the difference between how NSU and Mazda handled rotaries. From what I remember, NSU tested the cars themselves and decided they were reliable enough. Mazda on the other hand, gave them to select people with instructions to "treat it like any other car" and then chased the problems as they arose. Then end result was that Mazda's rotaries were more robust than NSU's, even though Felix Wankle himself worked at NSU.

Basically the point is that Americans hate changing their driving habits. This is where electric cars have problems too. Try looking at things like fuel gelling in cold weather for diesels. Sure you can put in additives to make it less of a problem but that is and extra step. Or something like the urea injection to clean up the exhaust, that fluid is an extra thing to watch out for. I bet you can think of many more ways diesels would make people change their driving habits.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:36

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If you want to do diesel, here's a counterpoint - We've already invested billions into hybrids and hydrogen and electrical energy. Why push people to go back to another fossil fuel that is still subject to the same problems as gasoline? If you were going to do that, why not do CNG cars? They at least produce incredibly low amounts of emissions naturally so getting a CNG car to zero emissions is a breeze due to how clean the fuel burns. The equipment is also quite robust and CNG is plentiful so cost is low, encouraging people to drive the cleaner fossil fuel cars. Plenty of fleets already use CNG-converted sedans and the fuel savings pay for the conversion kit in a matter of months. When an ROI timeline is less than a year, that is HUGE.

Don't think of your argument as "why should we buy diesel?" think of it as "Why buy diesel over hybrids, electrics, and CNG vehicles ?"

desertdog5051 > area man 11/15/2013 at 18:42

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I agree. With the EPA now talking about reducing/removing ethanol from fuels, there are many compelling arguments against it in its present form.

MountainCommand > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:44

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Why not just write about the MANUALS vs SISSYSTICKS saga that continues on the oppoverse.

Forget about diesel. You need to start small and convince your professor to drive stick.

Speedmonkey > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:49

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What's the fuel of the future, hydrogen or electricity?

lucky's pepper > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 18:49

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How about writing something on how, if the federal government were actually serious about reducing fuel consumption, they should alter US regulations to make this country more diesel friendly.

Or how, if they were serious about lessening our dependence on foreign fuel, the feds should encourage (not force but encourage) the production of natural gas powered cars and work with the fuel companies to get the infrastructure in place that those cars would need.

davedave1111 > Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. 11/15/2013 at 18:50

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I only ask, because I was driving some rental van a while ago that seemed to idle down at about 100-120 rpm. It sounded amazingly rough, but then I realised that was because it was revving so slowly that each cylinder was only firing about once a second. As soon as you brought it up to a more normal idle speed - 500-750 rpm - the faster firing smoothed everything out.

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/15/2013 at 18:52

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So you're saying argue against diesels and other fossil fuels in favor of cleaner alternatives?

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > Speedmonkey 11/15/2013 at 18:54

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I think this is the winner, I'll keep my options open but this is very good, haha thanks alot!

Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. > davedave1111 11/15/2013 at 18:55

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Well, 100rpm is just mental.

I once drive a bus for my license, and that thing was idling somewhere arround 700rpm, and redlines at 3000rpm. My friend's BMW even oly redlines somewhere about 5500-6000rpm.

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > davedave1111 11/15/2013 at 18:56

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Yeah I'm a fan of diesels but I couldn't think of a strong arguable topic. All I'd be able to do is state the facts comparing gasoline and diesel but that's not really the objective of the assignment, thanks for the input!

davedave1111 > Aya, Almost Has A Cosmo With Toyota Engine Owned by a BMW. 11/15/2013 at 19:00

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Yeah, 100rpm is ridiculous. But now I come to think of it, I'm a bit surprised cars still idle so fast. Do they really need to fire that often to keep running?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 19:00

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I don't care. I'm just saying when you make an essay like that, part of the speech is addressing what the alternatives are. So in your case you would need to address the following if you were pro-diesel cars being encouraged in America

-Electric and CNG cars are much cleaner
-Hybrid tech seems to be much wider spread already as the stopgap before alternative fuels
-CNG cars are much cheaper in the long run due to CNG being a fraction of the cost of gas or diesel
-More money is being poured into alternative energy everyday which will evolve the products further. How long until gas and diesel engines require vast amounts of time and resources for the smallest gains on efficiency or power?

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > desertdog5051 11/15/2013 at 19:00

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All very good points, I like the idea of ethanol in fuels just because it makes them a little cleaner, it just rots the fuel systems of cars not designed with it in mind. E85 and biodiesel are also great alternatives but right now the refining process is still too expensive to make it an affordable alternative.

Joseph Shaul > desertdog5051 11/15/2013 at 19:02

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It's worth looking at the possibility of high-compression ethanol - as sixty years of dragsters have proven, alky cars can run under colossal compression, yielding superior thermal efficiency. It's possible to get similar fuel economy to a gas-powered car despite reduced energy density.

Here's hoping for cellulosic ethanol, eh?

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > MountainCommand 11/15/2013 at 19:05

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Well he drives an '01 pathfinder but I have no clue if it's a stick or not. But I will say in a discussion about millenials and the drop off in car ownership he said he would take a car over the social connectivity and the internet any day of the week, agreeing with me and one other sub-millenial(?) in our class of about 30.

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > davedave1111 11/15/2013 at 19:09

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My 9-3 Aero idles around 650 RPMs with the AC off. If I turn it on it dips to about 625 revs but gets kinda rough until the ECU ups the idle to about 800. I think manufacturers set the idle high in favor of smooth running and engine balance

desertdog5051 > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 19:24

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One thing you should consider about ethanol is it actually reduces mpg while reducing pollution. An interesting argument would be is the trade off worth the cost. Corn is a horrible product to make fuel ethanol from (makes great whiskey). Countries like Brazil use sugar cane and grasses which provide multiple harvests each year.

desertdog5051 > Joseph Shaul 11/15/2013 at 19:29

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A good point you make. Ethanol under high compression does produce massive power. However, it is not practical for cars that need to run both gas and Ethanol. In addition, cars that use it require a lot more of the fuel to supply the same power and high compression increases wear on engine parts.

davedave1111 > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 19:30

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I guess so. Where I've seen really low idle speeds, it's been on vehicles with economy as a big selling point.

My old (petrol) Toyota used to idle at under 500rpm even when cold. Sounded rough as anything, but then it was a pretty rough engine to start with. Economical as all hell, though it did get annoying having to boot the throttle hard just to get it up to normal engine speed every time you wanted to move off from stationary.

Godspeed11- I own a SAAB > davedave1111 11/15/2013 at 19:55

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Haha my car on a cold start idles at 1,100. Makes me look like that tool that floors it from cold haha

MountainCommand > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 20:17

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there is hope! Give him a solid essay on why cars should be just mechanical, and youll have an A for sure.

TurboSloth > Godspeed11- I own a SAAB 11/15/2013 at 20:22

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I wrote my High School senior thesis about how we need to get off gasoline (to save it for the petrolhead), and invest in alternate energy for the masses. Also, why electricity sucks, citing Top Gear. I got an A.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > lucky's pepper 11/16/2013 at 01:05

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It's actually a common misconception that we are "dependant on foreign oil". We do buy some from overseas but we get a lot from Canada and the gulf region. I think if you broke down a gallon of gas, less than 20% of the raw oil comes from sources outside of the Americas. 60% of our total oil needs across all consumer goods comes from domestic production. Of the remaining 40%, 30% comes from Canada. Another 10% comes from Mexico. That's 76% of our oil coming from North America. Only 28% of our imported oil comes from the Persian Gulf. So a little over 10% of each "gallon" comes from the middle east.

And you are correct that our natural gas reserves give us a major power play nowadays. I was telling the OP in another comment that if he wants to be pro-diesel, he will have to address the fact that CNG cars are already very successful in fleets where the CNG equivalent of a gallon is a fraction of the cost of a gallon of diesel or gas. Plus the conversion kits are typically pretty cheap for how fast you can see a return on investment. My dad is currently contracted to do a bunch of these conversions for a limo/hire car company and apparently the kit pays for itself within a year of installation if you drive a lot.

He said the craziest one so far was a CNG/plug-in hybrid car. I guess it had a 30-40 mile range around town and had the CNG gas for highway use. ROI was a bit longer than a year but its operation time was absurd since you had the electric motor and batteries for when you were stuck in traffic jams or in downtown and you had a massive CNG tank and motor for highway cruising. Range wasn't too big of an improvement over a pure CNG but the time that the car could be in service gained a very useable boost. Oh and the car was always at zero emissions, no matter what engine was powering it. No word on whether or not companies are buying it though as it does cut down even further on trunk space and adds a lot of cost and complexity.

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/16/2013 at 12:12

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Thanks for the info, I didn't realize that small of a percentage of our oil comes from outside North America and will have to do a bit of reading on the subject.

If you stats are correct (I'm not doubting you) it is even more enraging. Imagine if we were drilling in Anwr and all the other places the feds have put out of bounds?

lucky's pepper > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/16/2013 at 12:22

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Regarding your statement that electric cars are much cleaner then diesel; I can certainly see this in areas of the world that derive the majority of their electricity from nuclear energy, but in the States, where 40% of our electricity is generated by coal burning plants, is that still true?